The Hen Report: “The Ultimate Goal” | Vegan Advocacy, Factory Farming & the Future of “The Movement”

 In this episode of The Hen Report from Our Hen House, hosts Jasmin Singer and Mariann Sullivan unpack the growing differences in approaches within the animal protection movement between some large organizations and some grassroots activists. They examine how some major groups are currently framing their “end factory farming” missions — often without naming a clear end state or using the word “vegan” — and whether big-donor funding is quietly steering the movement’s strategy. The conversation also covers inspiring grassroots actions, from a 207-mile march targeting Marshall Bioresources to vegan advocacy reaching over a million viewers on YouTube.

• Inside the “two movements” of animal protection: Why the gap between approaches of top-down organizations and grassroots activists may be wider than ever — and whether that’s a problem or an opportunity.
• “End factory farming” — A closer look at how groups like The Humane League, Mercy For Animals, Compassion in World Farming, and Farm Forward state (or elide) their ultimate goals, and why the word “vegan” is often missing.
• Follow the money: How a small number of funders may be shaping the movement’s theory of change, and what that means for activists who don’t fit the big-tent agenda.
• Grassroots wins worth celebrating: Mariel’s appearance on The Financial Diet sparks real dietary change among viewers, a 207-mile march demands a criminal investigation of Marshall Bioresources, and Florida activists use the bear hunt lottery system to save lives.
• Tools and events for activists: Alison Argo’s new film Forever Home (streaming Sept 26–Oct 3), Vegan Creator Con’s new training challenge, and a study showing how social support makes reducing meat consumption easier.

RESOURCES

• • • • • Marshall BioResources Faces Call for Criminal Investigation
        • Vegan Creator Con NEW CHALLENGE LAUNCHING!
        • Hunters and activists vie for permits for controversial Florida black bear hunt
        • Study Reveals That Social Support Could Make Eating Less Meat Easier
        • Forever Home film
        • Rally at the Gates
        • March to Abolish Animal Testing
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    INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT

    Jasmin Singer: Welcome to The Hen Report from Our Hen House. I'm Jasmin Singer.

    Mariann Sullivan: I'm Mariann Sullivan

    Jasmin: And barking in the background is Pietro, uh, who, who really likes to do whatever he can to be his, his charming chihuahua self.

    Show More Transcript

    Did you see that there was, like, a study that said, I think you sent it to me, that...

    Mariann: I sent it to you

    Jasmin: chihuahuas and coyotes are, like, very, very related.

    Mariann: Well, I don't know about very, very, but I did send it to you and you thought it was a joke, and then you realized, no, actually Chihuahuas have a lot of coyote genes.

    Jasmin: Yeah, exactly.

    Mariann: Which explains so much.

    Jasmin: Totally.

    Mariann: Though coyotes are nice, you know

    Jasmin: Yeah, or coyotes depending upon how you say it.

    Mariann: I say coyotes 'cause I'm, I'm not pretentious and pretend I'm from the West.

    Jasmin: Do you say portage or portage?

    Mariann: I don't think I've ever used that word.

    Jasmin: I just, I was having a discussion with a friend of mine the other day about how to pronounce that. By the way...

    Mariann: But, like, why, why did you... I don't even, I'm not even sure what it means.

    Jasmin: It, it's like boat related. Uh, by the

    Mariann: No wonder, no wonder.

    Jasmin: There's this, there's this YouTube I really like. It's called Rob Words. You should watch it. It's just this guy who's like talking about etymology and all of this...it's really fascinating.

    Mariann: I have to find more YouTubes that are not about politics.

    Jasmin: You would love it!

    Mariann: 'Cause I'm losing my mind

    Jasmin: You would love this so, so much. Uh, okay, so here we are. Rising Anxieties is, uh, it comes out on Tuesdays. I almost said this is Rising Anxieties because of what you just said, 'cause I felt your anxiety is rising when you said.

    Mariann: Yeah. I could do that every day.

    Jasmin: Yeah. Well, Rising Anxieties comes out on Tuesdays. The Hen Report, which is this, on Thursdays, and the long form interview on Fridays. The bonus content for Flock members, which I do think is getting better and better, comes out on Mondays. We're on YouTube, we're on all of the podcatchers, so hit Subscribe, Like, Comment, et cetera, et cetera. So, you know, when, when we first met 20 years ago, I was immediately taken by, well, I would say some mixture of, like, your brain and the way you contextualize things with kind of of our rapport and, and you were so good at, like, talking to me about making sense of things related to the animal protection movement. That was why Our Hen House started, 'cause I was so taken by your brain that I wanted other people to have access to it like I did. But 20 years later, literally, here we are, and

    Mariann: The other reason Our Hen House started, can I just say this 'cause I think it's relevant, is 'cause I, I mean, I had thought of it as a blog because I'm not nearly as ambitious as you are, not as a podcast, which were very new then. But I wanted to highlight what individual grassroots activists were doing. I wanted to do...

    We started doing blog stories and then moved to, um, doing it as a podcast, and I just wanted to find people who were doing cool activism, uh, you know, mostly on their own, like grassroots activism, people c- coming up with interesting ways to, to spread the word about animals, and that, that was my goal when we started, and I really feel like I'm a little...

    I mean, it's always been the goal, but I'm even more full circle around that's the goal. Anyway, that's what we're focusing on today.

    Jasmin: And to be clear, we started as a podcast too. We were just also blogging. Did you know that blogging, just the term blogging is coming back around?

    Mariann: No, like that, that it disappeared and, and, and it's coming back in like almost instantly.

    Jasmin: Yeah, well that's my understanding. I could be, I could be wrong, but I think...

    Mariann: Is it 'cause everyone has a Substack now, so?

    Jasmin: There's like no way of wording it. Like, I think Substacking is also sort of a verb for, for some people or to Substack, you know? But, uh, anyway, I digress. So the reason I'm bringing this up right now is because I always felt like when we were recording Our Hen House, like in our little apartment in SoHo for so many years and this and that, it was kind of just putting the mic on and broadcasting what we were discussing all the time anyway.

    Like, it wasn't like we went into that mode. And, and I sort of think it's the same now. I mean, we talk about this stuff all the time. Every now and then we'll talk about something else, like a play that I make you see or, you know, or something like that. But, but mostly this is what we discuss. And so this morning we were having this long text discu- this dis- long text discussion about kind of the way you put it, I think, and I'm gonna misquote you, so please fix, fix the way I phrase this, is sort of like it almost feels like the animal protection movement is two movements right now.

    Is that, is that cor- is that kind of the way you couched it?

    Mariann: Yeah. I mean, it's possibly, it's possible it's more than two, but, uh, but yeah. And I think, I mean, we've probably said some of this before, but it keeps going around and around in my head, like trying to work out where the movement is right now, and trying to, trying to understand whether it matters to me where the movement is right now.

    Because I do think that, that to a certain extent, it, it's very helpful to think of the grassroots part of the movement as kind of a separate movement of kind of very similar goals, but not exactly the same. Certainly aligned goals, uh, but not exactly the same. And I think it's just easier than, rather than trying to figure out what everybody else is...

    'Cause I don't really understand a lot of the strategy and the theorizing behind what some of the big groups are doing, and maybe I don't have to.

    Jasmin: Okay. Let me, let me weigh in a little bit because I, I agree. I, I think that we're not necessarily two or more groups that disagree about animals, but I think we are two or more groups that disagree about what to ask people for.

    Mariann: Yeah, no, it's all about the strategy, not about the ultimate goal.

    Jasmin: I'm gonna challenge you on, on the, the word strategy there because I, I, I don't know if there's strategy behind some of what's going on.

    And, and let me make-- let me explain my point here. That sounded a little meaner than I meant it.

    Mariann: Yeah, no, it was like, I'm not sure it's all about strategy 'cause they don't have any strategy.

    Jasmin: No, okay. I'm n- I'm not saying that. I actually have no idea what works and what doesn't.

    Mariann: Now you sound like them. I think too many people in this movement are, are my way or the highway. It's just crazy. There can be different ways to move forward.

    Jasmin: I just said the sentence I have no idea what works and what doesn't, and I've been doing this a, a long time at this point.

    But

    Mariann: Nothing works

    Jasmin: every big group now says its mission is to end factory farming, but none of them say what that means. And you and I, we've been discussing this for the last several weeks, but I, I did pull up a few examples. Okay, so The Humane League basically their goal in their words is, "End the abuse of animals raised for food, and cages are the first step." they don't state the end, like the, the end is not stated.

    They don't have explicit vegan or plant-based...

    Mariann: I, I really feel that that's, uh, deliberate. I mean, that's part of the strategy is not to say, just to keep it m- uh, 'cause it's very big tent, and God knows we need a big tent. So it's very like come up with something that kinda everybody can support, and everybody hates factory farming.

    Everybody thinks it's bad.

    Jasmin: We do need a Big Ten. And also, I'm saying these statements with neutrality, okay? Farm Forward says that they're building the will to end factory farming. They don't state what the end means.

    As for vegan or plant-based, they, there is on their website a change your diet button. The Humane World that they want-- their goal is a more resilient plant-centric food system, and the end state is fewer animals, not none.

    Mariann: Yeah, that's always been... And they, they've never said everybody needs to be vegan.

    Jasmin: So, um, do, do they have plant-based mentioned? Yes. Plant-based mentioned. Vegan, no.

    Mercy For Animals says that they want to prevent cruelty to farmed animals and promote compassionate food choices. Do they have the end state named? No. As for vegan or plant-based, is it mentioned?

    They have compassionate food choices mentioned. And Compassion in World Farming, and this is actually according to Matt Dominguez who, from his interview on Our Hen House on episode 886, says end factory farming by 2040. Animals, quote, "If raised at all, on pasture" at, quote, "the highest level of welfare." Uh, end state named?

    Yes. This is actually the clearest named, I think, which is far fewer animals but still farmed. Do they have vegan or plant-based mentioned? Yes, as one part.

    So I just thought that was interesting. I think that it's, it's really fascinating how the end state is not mentioned in, like the, you know, the end state after the goal is accomplished i- is not mentioned clearly. Uh, so what do you, what do you make of all this? Like, what is the definition of for, like, factory farming...

    Mariann: I'm, I mean, I think to some extent they are leaving it fuzzy. I think that's probably deliberate. I do th- I mean, Dan Shannon, who's the new head of Mercy For Animals, um, did, did post something recently, I guess, about his theory of change, and he did say, I think, that, uh, that, that

    A future where we consume fewer animal products, where alternatives play a much larger role, where far fewer animals are raised for food. So they, they, within this there is the acknowledgement that people are gonna have to change the way they eat. There's not so much a, a, any, any statement that everybody has to go vegan, which, you know, I mean, admittedly is an unrealistic goal, I'm not gonna deny.

    But it's not even stated as like that's the dream. Um, and I think that the goal is to get a bigger tent. And I, you know, I just, the, the things that I have a problem with, it, it, for the people who, who are doing this, is anybody implying that vegan advocacy is, is actually a negative, I, I am done with. I mean, that's

    You know, they can be not doing that themselves, not emphasizing the word vegan except to say, "Well, we're vegan, but it's not like everybody has to go..." Like, no. I mean, vegan advocacy is, is to me crucial. Um, it's not the only way forward. I don't think I have to be moving towards the only way forward. I don't think I'm, I, I don't wanna be the so my way or the highway, uh, but, but some people are saying that, uh, vegan advocacy is the problem.

    And some people, I mean, I, oh, I'm kinda, you know, I'm kinda taking this off the top of my head, but I really have seen it implied by some people that the reason we haven't gotten further is because vegan advocates are so rigid or whatever, which is bullshit. I mean, the reason we haven't gotten further is 'cause people like to eat meat.

    I mean, we don't really understand all of the ramifications of that. And yeah, there are some people who are vegan, like, you know, who, who, who take a very, uh, rigid stance about veganism, but the vast majority of people have, the vast majority of this movement, including on the vegan side, has always been, like, gently welcoming people.

    I, you know, it just makes me crazy. Being happy vegans, like, demonstrating how wonderful it is. We're, like, we're a bunch of wusses in my opinion. Like, which is probably a good thing, but this idea that vegans are out there criticizing everybody, like, wouldn't that be crazy?

    Jasmin: You've said, I think, that a lot of, uh, what, what they actually fund is-- Like, like what, what is funded to support these campaigns doesn't actually end factory farming at all. It makes factory farming less cruel.

    Mariann: Yeah. No, that, that does seem, that, that does seem to, like, be a big disconnect between their stated goal, end factory farming and, and what they're actually doing. I mean, I think I might've talked about this before, but things like, you know, in ovo, uh, sexing of, of, of chicks so that the male chicks don't get born and thrown into grinders, that is something I'm all for, but, uh, it's like the industry wants that to happen.

    It would save them money. It would save them a problem. Like, that's not gonna end factory farming. A lot of, a lot of the reforms they're talking about are just gonna make factory farming less cruel, so it's kinda weird to talk about it being anti-factory farming.

    Jasmin: And they also want, uh, you know, the same Coefficient Giving which, which provides a lot of this funding, also funds or is looking to fund better slaughter for fish, cage-free hens.

    Mariann: Yeah

    Jasmin: You know, th- this is, is to the groups whose stated mission is to end factory farming, and so yeah, the m- the mission and the money, seem to be at odds with each other, and I don't know what to make of that.

    Like I, I, I, the f- the...

    Mariann: I think that we may be more rigid than other people in having, in wanting things to make sense.

    Jasmin: Right.

    Mariann: A lot of people don't care if things make sense. It just sounds good, and that's good enough for them. It's fine, you know?

    Jasmin: Well, I mean, the, the, the money is, is a problem, especially as all the mon- all this money is coming into the animal protection movement right now. As we know, only 3% of US charity donations go to farmed animals and o- of, of, of animal related, uh, money, right? 95% go to companion animals. There are more than 13 billion farmed animals killed in the US each year. So what concerns me is that when, when a funder is writing most of the checks, like when one or a few funders is writing most of the checks, the, the whole, quote-unquote, animal protection movement starts to kind of sound like that one funder's theory of change, and that's just what money does. That to me might be part of the reason why we're feeling this big divide between whether there's, like, one movement or many.

    Mariann: I think that's probably true. I don't think there's a hell of a lot we can do about it. Uh, you know, that's why I think of it as, as different movements. I don't-- I mean, I think that money is, is-- that's where it's going because that's where the funders want it to go. And, and it's more like the movement is, to some extent, shifting to accommodate the funders rather than the funders are malleable and could be persuaded to give, to give the money to vegan advocacy.

    So I think, you know, I think we are, we are still in the same place we were when we started Our Hen House, where we recognized that the top-down organizations were, uh, doing, you know, various kinds of reforms and various kinds of advocacy. But people were just-- like grassroots people, their role seemed to be to donate, and there, there seemed to be more that peop- everyday people could do than just donate, and that's kind of what we're still saying.

    Jasmin: I'm still really reeling about that article that was in The New Republic a few months ago that I know we discussed ad nauseam, how MAGA stole animal rights from the left.

    Mariann: Oh, they just, this, the authors Astra Taylor and I forget the guy's name, my, my apologies, um, just... Oh, here. I think I have it. Um, just wrote a follow-up in Current Affairs, how the right is taking over animal rights.

    Jasmin: That-- Really? I didn't read that yet.

    Mariann: Yeah

    Jasmin: Uh, well, one of the people who was quoted in that, uh, original article, Liam Gray, says, "the divide on animals right now is feeling less like left versus right and more like people versus special interests." Justin Marceau said, "Democrats view people who care about animals as a fringe subset of people who care about climate and the environment." Uh, I, I think that there is a strange warning here. I mean, I haven't read the update, but the, the rights version is sort of like animal nationalism and, and it's not really touching farmed animal protection. The, the political left abandoned activists, but you're saying that our movements only-- like big groups are maybe the ones who are abandoning animals.

    Is that, is

    Mariann: I d- I did not say that. You put those works- words in my mouth.

    Jasmin: I'm asking you if that's how you feel?

    Mariann: No. I, I think that people, probably people are doing what they think is the right way forward, and we should do the same. But I don't think that the money that is coming into the movement is gonna be... I don't think much of it is going to be available for grassroots activism.

    I think that, you know, we kind of have to do it ourselves. Not none of it. Not none of it, but, but,

    most of it is just different money. I mean, ex- uh, you know, and I don't really know that for a fact. Maybe there're all these E- EA, uh, billionaires who just think, uh, marches for the animals are the way to go, but I don't know about that.

    Jasmin: But we, the grassroots movement has always done what it did without m- much money. Uh, and that's not gonna change.

    Mariann: Totally. It's people.

    It's people, not money that, that, that fuels this movement.

    Jasmin: I was thinking about this discussion a little bit 'cause I know we were, I knew we were gonna talk about it on the podcast and I, I really feel personally at great odds here because I am a huge fan and proponent and, uh, practicer of grassroots one at a time outreach, but it is very slow and it is very expensive.

    Mariann: I doesn't have to be one of... Just because it's grassroots doesn't mean it has to be like one-on-one vegan advocacy. There are lots of different grassroots kinds of act- activism. I mean, the march, like, you know, which we've been talking about ad nauseam, is totally grassroots activism. It's not one-on-one.

    Jasmin: Well, I, guess part of what I'm asking and I'm dancing around this is like can we change hearts and minds? And is there time to change hearts and minds? And if there's not, and we still believe in it anyway and we still kind of hold that as the foundational belief, what strategy or campaigns do we do in the meantime? And how can we be very, very clear about what those end goals of the campaigns are? Because if it's end factory farming, we have a problem.

    Mariann: No, I think that the, my goal, and I imagine the goal of many people doing grassroots activism, it doesn't have to be end factory farming. We don't have to say what they say. It, it's to... I mean, which I'm all for ending factory farming, to be clear. But I would prefer to state the goal more globally as ending, um, ending animal consumption and ending animal exploitation, just like we always have.

    Uh, that can be my ultimate goal. I don't have to be cagey, uh, about it.

    Jasmin: Well, if you're gonna be cagey, it has to be a bigger cagey.

    Mariann: Oh, that was a good one.

    Jasmin: Thanks.

    Mariann: Um, but you know, and I don't know whether it's going to work. I don't know whether it's too slow. Everything's too slow. I just think, what else am I gonna do?

    Jasmin: Right.

    Mariann: Unless you work for one of these organizations and you think their, their theory of change, you know, is going to at least make factory farming less cruel, which I'm all for that as well, because who could live in this world anymore?

    But, but so i- if there were enough of us, every time one more person does grassroots activism, every, every time somebody gets on board, like it becomes bigger. And it doesn't have to be just like vegan advocacy one-on-one. You know, like th- obviously there's all sorts of online stuff. There's, uh, the-- people are, influencers are, are, are doing that kind of thing.

    Like there's, there's... I mean, our goal is to think of great ways, and actually I think that that's exactly what we planned on talking about today before we got off on this, and we talked about, gonna talk about Marshall trying to reach people with this message about, and by marching hundreds of miles, drawing attention to what's going on with the dogs, being vegan in that ca- in that world, in, in that, in that stand that you're taking, having other people see that, spreading the word.

    I mean, we've got, uh, I w- we're gonna mention Vegan Creator Con, which is, uh, you know, all about how vegan creators online can be more effective. Then, a, a wildlife, w- w- I love wildlife campaigns. I mean, I, I think it's a- another great... Companion animal and wildlife campaigns as vegans is, is... doing that as vegans, open but gently, I think is a great way to spread the word, and even if nobody goes vegan, at least maybe you saved some wildlife.

    I don't know. Um-

    Jasmin: Yeah. Well,

    Mariann: There, like that's what we do. I, I, y- you seem to want from me an argument, yeah, that's the way to go. I don't think it's the way to go. It's a way that is available to me.

    Jasmin: I'm not, I'm not wanting a specific answer f- well, I do want a specific answer.

    Mariann: Opening restaurants. How about opening vegan restaurants?

    Jasmin: But they cl- I mean, rest- the restaurant industry as a whole...

    Mariann: Oh my God, like you're terrible today!

    Jasmin: Wait, can I just, I'm going to just say something. I, I emceed this event last week, uh, for Goodwill. I emceed this f- uh, fashion sh- upcycled fashion show/fundraiser. I, I do it every year. I really love it. And I talked about veganism so much at that microphone, and I, like, wrapped it into the ethos for me, you know?

    And, and, and everyone left vegan. Well, okay, most of that story is true. But...

    Mariann: Well, I mean, I also think we have to, like, not think of our goal as turning people vegan. Like, because we don't know, and most people don't go vegan. I mean, that's something certainly we've learned since then, that, like, people don't go vegan. It doesn't mean that they aren't affected by the message and, and that they don't cut down or whatever.

    I mean, we have to throw our bread upon the water. We can't always know how it's going to come back. I mean, the big organizations, they have to satisfy their funders. They have to have more accountability. I'm not saying we should-- we don't need accountability, but we're going to have to, like, figure it out ourselves when what we're doing is working.

    Jasmin: Do you think...

    Mariann: And we can't say, "Well, if nobody in the room went vegan that night, then it was a waste of time." We cannot say that.

    Jasmin: Oh, 100%. And I,

    Mariann: And also, Planted Bloomington is opening on October 3rd in Bloomington, Indiana, and I actually wanna drive to Indiana, not just to be supportive, because the food looks fucking amazing.

    Jasmin: Yeah, I'm down. I'm down for a road trip.

    Mariann: They're not closing, they're opening.

    Don't, stop, stop reading what you read in, stop believing what you read in New York Magazine.

    Jasmin: Okay. You know...

    Mariann: Alison Argo has a new movie coming out

    Jasmin: And, and I'm so excited about this. She, she was on Our Hen House, like, over a decade ago, I think. But

    Mariann: Yeah, about the, the pig, um, the guy who stopped, uh, farming pigs and turned it into a sanctuary. Now she's writing about that sanctuary. She's making a movie about that sanctuary, that we interviewed them.

    Um, it's in North Carolina. It's called Piedmont, and the guy is an architect, and he and his wife are following their dream to provide the best possible life for rescued farm animals by rethinking the concept of home.

    And they, they d- they have designed it specifically, like starting from scratch, not copying barns the way they've always been built, but starting from scratch, thinking what the animals needs. It's such an interesting idea, and it was an interesting interview, but now she's made a movie about it.

    Jasmin: Yeah

    Mariann: Like, all right, if it's not gonna turn everybody vegan, I guess it's not worth it, but I think it's worth it.

    Jasmin: I didn't say that, okay? I misquoted you before and now you're misquoting me. I, I didn't say it's not worth it. I think every single thing that we can possibly do to try our very best to stand up for animals is worth it. I think that we, even if we have no idea... You just said we have to put the bread upon the water.

    I will mix that metaphor, but leave it carby 'cause I love my carbs, and we have to throw all the spaghetti at the wall that is possible.

    Mariann: Oh, nice car- carby metaphor. Series of carby metaphors

    Jasmin: Well maybe there will be more. The night's still young. I don't mean to sound sour, but I'm trying to be honest about how divided I feel right now because I, you know, Marshall really inspires me to the point of tears constantly. And, and yet even though I know that the bigger goal is to bring in the farmed animals, though Ella would say that the dogs are farmed animals, they're just being farmed for something else, but the farmed animals who we eat, not we, but the, the bigger

    Mariann: Alright. We, we get it. We get it, Jasmin.

    Jasmin: It's dogs and, and I want that kind of traction

    Mariann: It's not just dogs either. It's, it's not farm animals, but, in the traditional sense, but...

    Jasmin: By the way, if you're listening to this on the day it comes out or before Saturday and you're anywhere near North Rose, New York, which is right outside of Rochester, or you're able to get there, be there tomorrow for the final day of the 207 mile march to end

    Mariann: I'm not sure it's tomorrow when people are listening to this

    Jasmin: Tomorrow when people are listening to this. Right. Well, it's tomorrow if you're listening to this on the day that this comes

    Mariann: On Friday. No, it's, it's actually the day after tomorrow. It's a...

    Jasmin: date 'cause I'm messing all of this up

    Mariann: coming... It's Saturday. It's September 26th, I think.

    Jasmin: Yeah.

    Mariann: And,

    Jasmin: That's right.

    Mariann: Yeah, they're having a huge rally. I, I, I, I like to call it a, um, a, a... It's not, not a protest, but a convocation. I like to call it a convocation

    at, at Marshall Bioresources, which is in the middle of fucking nowhere, I'll tell you.

    It's a beautiful area of New York, um, but, like, there ain't a lot around there, and there's gonna be a lot of people around there, and they really want people around there, 'cause they have plans. This is not just a walk, uh, of 207 miles. That, you know, that would be a lot. But they have, they have, um, political plans.

    They're trying to gather support. I think one of the things they're trying to gather support for is a criminal investigation.

    Jasmin: Love it!

    Mariann: Rise for Animals wrote about that this, this week. They're trying to get the local DA, and I think they have plans if that doesn't work, but Wayne County is the name of the county, and, uh, they're trying to get the local DA to, to, to investigate.

    Jasmin: Well, let me ask you s- let me ask you a follow-up question to that.

    Mariann: 'Cause I bet there're a lot of crimes going on there.

    Jasmin: That's amazeballs. Like, that makes my activist heart sing. Do you think that individuals change first, or do norms change and the individuals follow?

    Mariann: I don't understand the question.

    Jasmin: Well, you're a lawyer and you...

    Mariann: Well, I think it's both. I mean, I think some individuals are in le- uh, like, take a leadership role and, and change before there has been a lot of... And, you know, for whatever reason, uh, either something motivates them or they're just that kind of a person and, and they, they help to shift norms that a lot of other people follow.

    I don't think it's an either/or.

    Jasmin: Hmm. Yeah, I agree with that. I just, you

    Mariann: I mean, and you know, we've lived through these years of the Trump administration, and, uh, like we know the people, it turns out, are even fucking crazier than we ever imagined. Like, none of us really understand what's going on. All we can do is try. And if you spend your life not trying to end this unbelievable crime, then I don't know what's wrong with you.

    So just try.

    Jasmin: Well s- and I just wanna go back to h- how yes, we, we all need to try. I wanna talk briefly, you don't even know this, about my friend Mariel who I recorded, uh, the Hen Report with like a month ago I think at this point.

    Mariel wound up getting invited onto The Financial Diet after our video came out, uh, our conversation talking about how the host of The Financial Diet was being, uh, kind of dismissive about veganism in our opinion, and they had a great conversation about, amazing, to like her s- over a million subscribers, uh, on The Financial Diet.

    Anyway, I got a text from Mariel this morning, uh, just kind of telling me a few of the comments that she got r- this week, and they are so heartening. Uh, they, they just really show to go, yeah, as you would say,

    Mariann: that

    Jasmin: you just don't ever know where, where it's gonna reach. And, and she was lucky enough to get comments that are showing her the, the fruits of her labor, but most of us will never know.

    And like for, here's one example: "That was an incredible interview that I came to as a follower of Chelsea's channel." That Chelsea is The Financial Diet. "You've inspired this ex-vegan to reexamine my choices. I just kept thinking, Chelsea's response to this argument is so weak, which brought me to the reality that there really aren't any solid arguments against veganism as a general concept for the general population. All the what about people in food deserts, what about people with strict allergies, et cetera, simply don't apply to me." And, you know, there sh- there's, there's more as well. Uh, th- this was, let's see, someone else saying that they are now 70% vegan and they're working on being even more vegan. And again, like, this is a community, the YouTube community, they're very commenty, and so we happen to, we happen to occasionally get comments that say things like, "I am happy to say that I've been a vegan for 12 days, and I was inspired with y- by your interview on The Financial Diet.

    I hope you get more opportunities for outreach because you're a fantastic vegan ambassador." Now, I, I don't think Mariel would mind my saying that, like, after she was done with the interview, she had a lot of like, "Did I get it right?" You know, as a, as a vegan advocate in this, in the limelight in this huge way, and she was worried that she didn't.

    And, and so I'm using that success as, a positive, uh, a, a positive sign that even when we don't have any idea if what we did works, it probably did at least a little bit. And maybe it, maybe someone else was turned off, but I genuinely think that for all of the people who are turned off by our messaging, there are more who are thinking critically about animal issues and their role in being complicit in the suffering of animals.

    Mariann: Yeah, I, I, I, I totally agree. Like, I mean, and that is a situation w- where it is fortunate that, that there is feedback. In most situations there aren't. And I mean,

    Jasmin: Okay,

    Mariann: I, like, like I keep saying, like, it's not just about getting the feedback. It's not even, it's not even just about whether you make a change, though that's certainly crucial.

    It's like, what else are you gonna do with your life? Not fight for those animals?

    Jasmin: But let me-- Okay, I know I, I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not gonna continue beating this, um, dead

    Mariann: flower.

    Please, please.

    Jasmin: But I do wanna say that if Mariel went on this show in front of more than a million people and said, "And therefore we need to end factory farming," what would the comments have been? Like, what would people have said they did?

    Mariann: Some... I mean, I don't think you can judge everything by comments and going on shows. And I, I'm not gonna say that that message, a lot of people have thought about that message and said, "This is a big tent message, and everybody's against factory farming, so that's what we should talk about."

    And we will mention casually from time to time that that means you have to eat fewer, hopefully no animals.

    Jasmin: Mm-hmm.

    Mariann: They probably wouldn't put that hopefully no in there. They would just say fewer animals. But, uh, but that's, like, they, I don't know, like, that's their plan.

    Jasmin: Okay.

    Mariann: None of us know how to do this. Factory farming is beyond being able to think about.

    Jasmin: Okay. I will...

    Mariann: And maybe that's not the kind of message you bring to a podcast. Maybe, you know, but it's a message you bring to a legislature. I don't know.

    Jasmin: Well, do you

    Mariann: But I wanna do what I wanna do.

    Jasmin: And, and is one of those things that you want to do talk about some of these articles that you found that are in fact speaking to the heart of why we started Our Hen House?

    Mariann: All right, sure. I also-- I already mentioned the Marshall Bioresources from Rise for Animals, that they're going to do a criminal investigation. All right, hunters and activists vie for permits for controversial Florida black bear hunt. I just really like, uh, wildlife activism. I think this is an area like, like companion animal activism that people can really hear.

    It's vitally important. Uh, what's happening to these animals is a nightmare, and I love what these people are doing here. Th- they have this, this lottery to, to go out and, and shoot bears in Florida. It's charming. And, and animal activists are, are applying for them, and it's very competitive and, and, uh, th- if they, if, if they get a, a bunch of them, then tho- those people are not going out there shooting bears.

    Jasmin: Yeah, that makes me think of the, there was this, this headline in a local paper here in Rochester that said, "Hunters are encouraged to harvest deer without antlers because of overpopulation." And like you and I kind of changed it to, "Hunters encouraged to murder mothers and babies," which is basically what it was saying, hunt deer without antlers.

    But, uh, yeah, I mean, this, the, the, the story you, you talked about is much more hopeful and action-oriented.

    Mariann: It's, 'cause it's activism. Um, the, the story has a lot more in it than that, and we'll put the link in the, in the... Uh, a- another story that I saw, um, in, in the show notes. I'm supposed to finish my sentences, aren't I? It's so hard for me. So, uh, this is from Plant Based News. This is more about activism technique.

    Study reveals that social support could make eating less meat easier. Now, this is kind of obvious, but we cannot say it enough. If you're doing vegan activism or just meat reduction activism or just trying to get people to pay more attention, it just really, really helps if, uh, people are not doing it in isolation, and, and that, that, that we're primates.

    That's how we, that's how we function. I think this is probably the, one of the most crucial reasons why, you know, people do not change their eating habits is because of, uh, you know, the people they know don't change their eating habits. I know we all know this, but it's just emphasizing that and offering some tips on, on how you can bring, um, social, social events and, and social company into, into your vegan activism.

    So I thought that was really useful.

    Jasmin: Yeah. The, uh, going back to the new movie from Allison Argo, which you could learn more about at foreverhome.love, Sh- she's trying to do a streaming party, right?

    Mariann: Yeah

    Jasmin: That's something, is that, that's something that people could do.

    I, I should have briefed

    Mariann: No, I mean, no, I think by streaming party she just means that there will be a certain amount of time when the movie will be available.

    Jasmin: Oh,

    Mariann: She's not particularly encouraging people to do, to watch it in parties. It, it'll be available online for $12, but you could certainly do, um, do parties online, but it's ju- I think she's just trying to encourage people to see it.

    Jasmin: It's just for a week, the September 26th to October 3rd at foreverhome.love. You can watch it on demand for $12. And yeah, if what maybe, maybe h- get some popcorn and have, have some people over to watch it 'cause I think that like the... I'm a big proponent of storytelling being at the core of activism, and this certainly epitomizes putting storytelling at the core of, of a change-making endeavor. And that to me seems like it's right along with the, the, the tips you were just giving us, the article regarding social behavior impacting, uh, impacting animals. Do we have anything else to talk about?

    Mariann: Well, there's a, uh, you know, I don't know a lot about it. I've just looked at the website. Somebody mentioned it to me. Um, but this Vegan Creator Con, if you're online a lot, uh, this is just trying to ch- to, to train people and challenge people on how to be more effective online. And, uh, they, they have a new challenge launching.

    It does say on the website, "Join the wait list," so I'm not sure whether it's available. It's launching on October 5th, but there will be more in the future as well. And I just think... I mean, this... I should, I should take this for Christ's sake. Like, I am so pathetic online.

    Jasmin: They do amazing work. The, the, the folks behind it, I, th- they're really doing cool stuff. So it's definitely a mailing list you'll wanna be on, and we will link to that as well. All right. Have we, have we covered it all? Have we

    Mariann: I, I think we covered enough. We covered enough. Certainly not all. There's m- there's, it's, it's, uh, it's a huge world out there of, of animal activism. Be part of it.

    Jasmin: Do you still feel like I was negative on this? 'Cause

    Mariann: Yeah, definitely. Yeah

    Jasmin: I just don't, I, I'm trying, I'm trying to be, like, a realist, but I don't feel negative.

    Mariann: Well, that, uh, you know, being a realist in this world is inevitably negative.

    Jasmin: I wouldn't do Our Hen House if I felt negative.

    Mariann: Oh, I'm not saying you are negative. I'm just saying you're having kind of a negative day.

    Jasmin: I won't fight that. That's true. But it's folks like you who are listening and watching who give me hope, so continue to listen and watch, and thank you so much for tuning in. Uh, don't forget to subscribe, like, comment on your favorite podcatcher and or on YouTube, and you can join the flock at ourhenhouse.org/support. Big thanks to Vicki Beechler for her work in producing this episode, and we will talk to you next time.

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